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Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

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Jay See Double You

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Posts: 282

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:36 am

Location: Somewhere in the suburbia network of Des Moines, Iowa...

Post Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:57 pm

Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

Hey Gang,

As other posts have demonstrated, I've been well involved in console gaming over the years, but PC gaming has been almost completely absent from my repertoire and of late, I've been trying to think of ways to remedy this.

What I currently have in computer hardware is a 2009 Mac Book Pro 17". Great as a laptop, but probably not the best platform for comprehensive PC Gaming (current, modern, and retro....plus, I imagine running a mac would increase compatibility concerns.

The eras of PC gaming that I'm the most concerned about are pre-Windows DOS, Windows 3.1 era (win and dos), Windows 95/98 Era (win and dos), Windows XP era, and current games.

I also want to use my computer as a home media center on the TV (s) and big stereo. This much I could do with the macbook, getting the mac monitor out to HDMI converter, and a wireless keyboard/mouse...but where I think the macbook would fall short is on gaming.

I'd want to have a dual monitor setup: monitor 1 being the 1080i LCD via HDMI, monitor 2 being the 480i Toshiba CRT using composite. The idea is that the OS (s) would run through monitor 1, and any game that utilizes resolutions higher than 640x480 would run through monitor 1 as well. But lower resolution games would run on the Toshiba...this would be beneficial for things like EGA so they do't look all blocky like they do on SVGA+.

So, my questions are manifold: The first one is whether or not I can realistically accomplish this through virtualization and/or emulation, or am I looking at actually needing to buy legacy hardware (say, a 486 w Win 3.1, a Pentium 3 w/ Win 98, a Core 2 Duo w/ XP, and then a Core i7 with Win 7)? I'm running Parallels on my macbook with Windows 7, Windows XP, and Ubuntu 10.04 VMs, so I do have some familiarity and experience w virtualization.

If we're talking virtualization, what kind of software am I looking at using, especially with the older installs (Win 98 and back?) Am I looking at running DOSBOX and installing Windows systems into that? Does DOSBOX even work that way?

I'd prefer to stick with macs, but if that would only create problems, or at least be not worth the price, all things considered, I would be willing to go with a PC. Perhaps I could use the PC for the gaming stuff, and the macbook for the home media center business. Or I could have a powerful PC for gaming, and a powerful power mac for home recording studio/media center business...who knows.

If I can accomplish all of this with one computer via virtualization, what kind of hardware specs am I needing to go for to make this worth my while? If I can't pull this off with virtualization, what kind of legacy hardware collection should I go for?

Is there a great resource to get the most important PC games (besides ebay or half.com) and a list of the most crucial games to get?

Alright, I'm sure that this is -not- all the questions I have, but it's all that I can think of at this late hour, so I'll post now, get the thread started, and I'm sure the other questions will come back to me sooner or later.

Thanks guys!

-J
Proud member of the Orbis 720 League since April 1, 2012! Keepin' it real...locked down! :-D
 

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Jay See Double You

User avatar

Posts: 282

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:36 am

Location: Somewhere in the suburbia network of Des Moines, Iowa...

Post Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:00 am

Re: Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

Moderators: I suppose this thread goes better under "Personal Computer" than in "Other Retro Stuff." I must've missed "Personal Computer" on my cursory scan for it. My bad. If you feel it best, go ahead and move the thread to the other categories with my apologies.
Proud member of the Orbis 720 League since April 1, 2012! Keepin' it real...locked down! :-D
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hugues

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Posts: 1076

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:12 pm

Post Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:57 am

Re: Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

Moderator? I guess that's me but the only moderation I've done is banning practically every IP address from Russia. Apologies to any legitimate Russian listeners we have out there, you gotta tell your countrymen to cut back on the spam.

Anyway - regarding The first one is whether or not I can realistically accomplish this through virtualization and/or emulation
Absolutely yes. Look at it this way, in 1996 a good gaming PC ran at 133 mHz with 16mb of RAM and 2-4mb of video. Even with the overhead of virtualization/emulation that's still a trivial amount of resources for a modern computer. Even a cheap netbook can run a virtual machine without breaking a sweat nowadays.

In terms of emulation vs. virtualization - DOSBox is easier to use than a virtual machine but I prefer virtualization because part of the fun for me is running the original OS. Maybe I'm just sick in the head that way. I don't what runs on a Mac but Microsoft Virtual PC and VirtualBox are both good. Here are a couple articles I wrote about using them to run old games and stuff:

Windows 95 on Virtual PC - http://huguesjohnson.com/win2k/win95vpc.html
Windows ME on Virtual PC - http://www.huguesjohnson.com/win2k/windows-me/
FreeDOS on VirtualBox - http://www.huguesjohnson.com/win2k/128mb/
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odnarb1986

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Posts: 386

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:32 am

Location: La Crosse, WI

Post Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:49 am

Re: Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

hugues wrote:Moderator? I guess that's me but the only moderation I've done is banning practically every IP address from Russia. Apologies to any legitimate Russian listeners we have out there, you gotta tell your countrymen to cut back on the spam.

Anyway - regarding The first one is whether or not I can realistically accomplish this through virtualization and/or emulation
Absolutely yes. Look at it this way, in 1996 a good gaming PC ran at 133 mHz with 16mb of RAM and 2-4mb of video. Even with the overhead of virtualization/emulation that's still a trivial amount of resources for a modern computer. Even a cheap netbook can run a virtual machine without breaking a sweat nowadays.

In terms of emulation vs. virtualization - DOSBox is easier to use than a virtual machine but I prefer virtualization because part of the fun for me is running the original OS. Maybe I'm just sick in the head that way. I don't what runs on a Mac but Microsoft Virtual PC and VirtualBox are both good. Here are a couple articles I wrote about using them to run old games and stuff:

Windows 95 on Virtual PC - http://huguesjohnson.com/win2k/win95vpc.html
Windows ME on Virtual PC - http://www.huguesjohnson.com/win2k/windows-me/
FreeDOS on VirtualBox - http://www.huguesjohnson.com/win2k/128mb/


I've followed Hugues's instructions on the Virtual PC setup and it works great! Very good articles.
Currently playing: Fatal Labyrinth (PS3), King's Quest: The Silver Lining (PC)
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Jay See Double You

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Posts: 282

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:36 am

Location: Somewhere in the suburbia network of Des Moines, Iowa...

Post Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:22 pm

Re: Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

Thanks for the info, guys!

Okay, so it looks like I'm going to need to get a copy of DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1. Somewhere, I have a copy of Windows 98 Upgrade, and a full copy of Windows 95 (for upgrade verification step.)

Now, several questions came to mind here:

1) Will I be able to get these VMs to support 1920x1080 full-screen?

2) Will I be able to get them to work with whatever dual-monitor setup I have in the host OS? (remember, I want to have the OS' themselves and any full-screen games / full-screen apps that run in higher than 640x480 to be presented on monitor 1 (the 1080i LCD flatpanel - connected via HDMI) and all the full-screen games / apps that run at or below 640x480 (such as old EGA DOS games) to be routed to monitor 2 (the 480i CRT upright - connected via Composite)

3) How reliably can I count on sound card and 3D graphics acceleration support in these games? Will game sounds that would be effected be Soundblaster, Ad Lib, or configurable? Which 3D Graphics card would it emulate, or would it just apply the actual physical graphics hardware in my laptop to the game?

4) If I have a wireless keyboard/mouse (either USB or BluTooth) in the host OS, will they work in the VMs, particularly the older ones?

5) Keeping in mind, that this computer I use will not only be a retro-gaming box, but also will serve as a current gen new school gaming box, at least, if not also a media center and/or recording studio computer. What are the recommended minimum specs for modern hardcore gaming?

6) How easy would it be to get a USB floppy drive and make all my games (CD or floppy) into disc images, and just store them in a folder somewhere in the VM to launch from that way?

7) Using virtual PC, can I make a VM for Windows XP for that era of gaming? I do think I still have a copy of Windows XP.

8) What is the PC gaming equivalent to XBox Live, or the PSN? Is it Steam? I've never looked into Steam, only heard it mentioned here on the forums and in a context that would suggest it's the PC equivalent to XBL/PSN. Is that a correct assumption? If so, what's it all about, how much does it cost, what features, etc, etc, etc.


And I'm sure that I'll still have more questions later...but your resources at least have me pointed in the right direction, now. So, thanks again!
Proud member of the Orbis 720 League since April 1, 2012! Keepin' it real...locked down! :-D
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hugues

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Posts: 1076

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:12 pm

Post Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:07 am

Re: Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

Disclaimer - I can only speak to my experiences with Virtual PC and VirtualBox on Windows:

1) Will I be able to get these VMs to support 1920x1080 full-screen?
The operating systems were developed at a time when 1024x768 was considered high end and very few (if any) games of that era support higher resolution than that. The video driver in Virtual PC supports up to 1600x1200.

2) Will I be able to get them to work with whatever dual-monitor setup I have in the host OS?
Yes, I do this all the time at work - albeit not for games. I have my main OS (Windows XP because our company refuses to upgrade) running on one monitor and a Windows 8 beta virtual machine (to test applications customers will use) running full-screen on the other.

How reliably can I count on sound card and 3D graphics acceleration support in these games?
Virtual PC emulates this video card - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S3_Trio and the Sound Blaster 16.

4) If I have a wireless keyboard/mouse (either USB or BluTooth) in the host OS, will they work in the VMs, particularly the older ones?
Doesn't matter how they're connected, the virtual machine is able to transfer control to the guest OS. To the guest OS they look like they're plugged into the PS/2 port.

How easy would it be to get a USB floppy drive and make all my games (CD or floppy) into disc images, and just store them in a folder somewhere in the VM to launch from that way?
Very easy.

Using virtual PC, can I make a VM for Windows XP for that era of gaming?
Yes but OpenGL isn't supported so it's somewhat limited.
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odnarb1986

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Posts: 386

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:32 am

Location: La Crosse, WI

Post Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

3. I don't know if this will work in VM Win95, but you could try downloading VDMSound, which helps emulate that quality music and sound for old pc games. As Sourceforge.net says, "VDMSound is a modular, extendable soundcard (and other "legacy" hardware) emulator for MS Windows NT/2000 DOS boxes." I've been able to use this in WinXP and it does a decent job of getting me the sound/music for some DOS games. http://sourceforge.net/projects/vdmsound/

As for DOS 6.22, I made a copy of it from a friend to diskette so I may be able to send you these files via email. Worth a shot; I'd basically send a Zip file containing one folder per diskette so the data wouldn't get scrambled). Haven't tried it but if it'll help your cause I'd be happy to.
Currently playing: Fatal Labyrinth (PS3), King's Quest: The Silver Lining (PC)
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Flak Beard

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Posts: 108

Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:18 am

Post Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:32 pm

Re: Seeking advice - Breaking into Retro PC Gaming

I can't really be much help as far as hardware goes. Haven't upgraded my PC in years... still running XP on a 1.5GHz Athlon. No reason to really since I only use it for emulation and retro PC games.

I can say however that a really, really great source for purchasing retro PC games is GOG. One of the best digital distributors out there and they are DRM free to boot.
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